RRNC

John Mallon

Quick Comment (All Mitigators reading this will nod in agreement):

The real problem is giving builders a pass on radon pipe installation.

First of all, Builder pipe is grossly misleading. The vast majority of Builders today don’t have Tradesman employees. All Tradespeople are Sub-contractors to the Builder. 90% plus of the new construction pipes we encounter today are installed by Plumbers. They typically do not even know that RRNC Standards exist let alone follow them. They simply install a pipe (any size or type) wherever they please run it to outside (somehow). They tell the Builder that they put in a radon pipe. The builder then tells the buyers that they’ve installed a radon pipe. The buyers assume from this that there will be no radon problem and the house is never tested until years later when the Owners sell. Too late for health risk avoidance!

As a result:
• We have a 55% failure rate on activating Builder pre-pipes.
• Builders get no feedback on failures because they’re not found for years.
• Plumbers never get feedback nor incentives
• Radon Professionals go through major certification/ licensing Plumbers nothing

All the talk about Builder Pipe, Radon LEED Points, Builder Radon Planning and RRNC is worthless until Government at all Levels put some laws with teeth in place.
John Mallon

Chad Robinson

John, very good points. After helping implement RRNC in my home town and helping with a study to determine it's effectiveness a couple years later, I kick myself for helping with the effort.

The point of what we do as radon professionals is to reduce risk. I do not think RRNC, as currently implemented (even when inspected by a city), reduces risk, because of the false sense of security that builder's and Realtors give buyers.

A test has to be required.

Bruce Decker BGIS

I have seen the City of Guelph, Ontario, Canada implement a very effective RRNC program. It had builder hick-ups at the start but people were learning. Many of the problems I see professionals point out about are 100% valid and I agree wholeheartedly. The root cause of the issue is that the Building Authority can only enforce Building Code. If Building Code (or other legislation) does not make testing mandatory then builders won't do it. If code allows for poor quality and improper installation because it is unclear or incorrect then these issues will continue. Legislative changes take time and are under political influence. If we, and the government in power want occupant safety and a healthy community legislation must change.

I understand the frustration. What keeps me going is the positive fact that radon is being discussed more often which leads to better public awareness. If you have 55% failure in builder pipe then you have 45% success which is more than 0% anything like we had ten years ago.

I do agree that there are short comings to RRNC and unskilled trades and ill informed people are among the main reasons for poor results. We are here to sort those out.

Robert Mahoney

I totally agree and like Bruce, have dealt with many building officials and builders directly- at least, we aren’t seeing stubs, buiried under the stairs- too much, anymore. That said, back flow preventers are my biggest issue today- plumbing inspector signs off on their installation- however it is an open box, leading directly to agrigate - so, all the possible sealing is wasted.
My preference would be, just test and let the professionals fix the problem- the cost benefit is a win for everyone!

Sam Grammer

Don't forget now we are also faced with a new issue when activating builder installed pipes in Leed or Green Buildings.
As builders scramble to comply with the new point system for LEED or GREEN HOME designated homes the guidelines are to include the attic area in the conditioned space.
Basically the issue is when the conditioned space is designed to include the attic, radon fans cannot be placed in the attic without violating all Radon Mitigation Standards.
Regardless of the Standards used a radon fan cannot be located in “Conditioned Space”.
After reviewing with 1 State Regulator it was determined, builder installed pipes (RRNC) that are routed through an attic where the underside of the roof is insulated are now a conditioned space and can not receive a radon fan.
The only solution at this time would be to run the radon system on the exterior of the building and abandon the radon system installed by the builder (RRNC).

Bruce Decker BGIS

Hi Sam

I need some clarification on your comment. In those situations is the attic occupied and tied to the building ventilation or simply insulated? I think it makes a difference as the point (as per US guidelines) of not putting the Rn fan in a conditioned space is to prevent Rn leaking into an "occupied space" where occupants could be exposed. An attic that is insulated for energy benefit may not necessarily be occupied or occupiable and should not be coupled to the living space. So I am not sure if the term conditioned is being properly applied or thought through. In this case forbidding an Rn fan in the (only insulated) attic I think is an incorrect interpretation. I just want to make sure I understand the intent and science and am not caught up in definitions (rightly or wrongly applied) that are forbidding a viable solution. In Canada our guidance allow for indoor radon fans in the basement. I always spec the install of a radon alarm with all my active systems to guard against leakage.

John Mallon

Great, Reasoned Comments!

Seems like Radon Installation Techs should be a recognized Trade then Builders would be compelled to use them to do the pre-pipes. Builders wouldn't use Finishers to install roofing or Painters to do the electrical. Radon pipe, is a big exception; seems anyone can do it!

Curious about your comment on Backflow Flow Preventers, Rob. What are they being used for? Ground Water flow?

Dick Kornbluth

In Central New York, a Zone 1 area, very few builders are employing RRNC techniques. Those that do will install a single passive 3" pipe as the only measure, even in houses greater than 3000 sf. Often, the pipe will be run through an exterior wall and will enter the attic so close to the soffit that installing a fan in the attic will be impossible. Suction pits are never created. The pipes are just jammed into the stone. We have even encountered passive pipes buried in the concrete slab. Builders in our area routinely create floating slabs with open perimeter drains and open sump crocks along with the passive radon pipe. The result of all this is that we often have to cap the passive pipe at the top and start from scratch when installing radon mitigation systems. Clearly what is needed in New York is a change to the building code that mandates proper RRNC construction techniques and that is extremely unlikely to ever happen in an already unregulated state where radon testing is regulated but mitigation is not.

Henri Boyea

↪Sam Grammer

Sam, there is always the option of installing the fan above the roof.

Henri Boyea

↪Bruce Decker BGIS

Bruce, the problem is that when the bottom of roof deck is insulated there are no gable or ridge vents, so the attic is now an unventilated space within the "envelope" of the house. These same issues apply to unventilated "attic spaces", which are really just closets, behind knee walls in bonus rooms above garages.

Sam Grammer

Under the Green Building Standards & The LEED Standards both being pushed by the USEPA and NHBA require the conditioned space be moved to the bottom of the roof deck.
This theory makes the unusable attic space that was separated from the conditioned space of the habitable area of the house by insulating the top of the ceiling of the second floor.
This would make the area of the attic similar to the outside air.
This concept even requires passive or active ventilation of the attic space to protect the roof from overheating reducing the life of the shingles.
The new concept of insulating the underside of the roof itself has inspired roof shingle manufacturers to change their product so each shingle has a built in ventilation delivered with each shingle.
The issue to the radon industry is this method of construction makes it a Violation of the Radon Mitigation Standards regardless of the standard adopted by your company or State.
NJ has adopted the ASTM E-2121 and it clearly stated a radon fan cannot be placed in the conditioned space of the house.
If a fan is placed in the attic of a home even where the builder has complied to in NJ the Radon Hazard Subcode in my case, or the National RRNC in other states, a full external radon system will be the only way to safely overcome this issue.

Dick Kornbluth

↪Henri Boyea

The other problem with fans in side attics is that they don't meet the ASTM 2121 requirements that radon fans must be installed "above the conditioned...spaces".

ASTM 2121: "7.3.3.2 Radon fans used in ASD radon mitigation systems shall be installed either outside the building or inside the building, outside of occupiable space, and above the conditioned (heated/cooled) spaces of a building."

It is interesting to note that attic spaces brought into the "conditioned" space when roof decks are insulated may not be occupiable and are certainly not intentionally heated or cooled. They are technically not conditioned spaces, but are inside the building envelope. This does raise interesting questions about vented vs unvented attic spaces in general. In cold climates in the winter time, stack effect produces a positive pressure at the top of the conditioned space which would prevent radon entry from the attic into the living space. However, in cold climates in the summer or in cooling climates, stack effect is reversed and the pressure is positive from the attic towards the living space. What would that mean if the attic was not vented and there was a leak in a radon fan under these conditions?

Henri Boyea

Clearly, our Standards are not keeping pace with changing building methods. I personally think the Standards have become far too complex by trying to offer a multitude of micro solutions for every conceivable situation rather than fewer macro guidelines.

Sam Grammer

It is our responsibility to ensure that we mitigate radon to the best of our abilities. Much like a medical professional, we must adapt with the changing environment. To treat radon with a broad standard gives too much room for grey areas and improper mitigation which puts the consumer at an unnecessary risk.
You wouldn't want your physician treating your body with a general mindset when treating a disease with other underlying comorbidities and complications would you?

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